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asoka

dale wrote: "Nudge, Doom,
When it comes to building kids, woods chief advantage is that it is readily available and cheap."

But it doesn't last as long as that other cheap and readily available building material that can last for thousands of years: earth.

http://www.calearth.org/PhotoGallery/photogallery.html

Dr.Doom

"I never use 25 year shingles, I prefer 30 because of durability, I have 50 year on my house, but I can tell you without looking that yours were almost certainly applied with staples rather than nails, and in an improper fashion. Common problem with poorly trained roofing craftsmen."

dale, that is correct. I saw the guy do the entire roof in one day, working alone. He used a stapler. The insurance appraiser noted that he had not stapled them in the correct orientation or used the minimum number of staples recommended per shingle. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

"The siding you are refering to is called LP, because it was developed by Louisiana Pacific. Not a product I would use (especially in your climate) but if it is applied according to directions it will last 25 years, or more with periodic repainting. The bottom lap of the siding had to be painted completely or it would grow mushrooms and other oddities. Directions stated this clearly but, no matter, LP paid huge sums to compensate people for siding not applied and painted per their directions."

That's also correct, and by the time we needed the replacement sheets, they were no longer available, as LP had discontinued their manufacture. Gee, I wonder why? So, we used a similar product and the next day after the repairs were complete, we put the house up for sale. One can only fight "city hall" for so long.

Dr.Doom

"Some of the most bearish expect the point of acknowledgement will be the bursting of the U.S. treasuries bubble which will of course take the dollar with it. Theres not going to be much excess capacity for any technofixes either cause were going to be too busy dealing with upper left to lower right. It's hard to reckon with upper left to lower right."--scott

scott, I think you hit it on the head. There will be some thrashing about, a lot of discussion and some starts in various directions. In the end, it may look a lot like metro Las Vegas appears right now, lots of construction projects frozen in place, mostly empty hotels, and casinos quieter than the city library on a Sunday evening.

Nudge

Scott, great post. My oldest surviving relatives (currently in their mid-80s) have seen nothing during their lives but steady, continuing technological progress. Everything has gotten faster, brighter, cheaper, smaller, quieter, more powerful etc. Even worse, the pace of acceleration has been increasing in certain fronts as of late .. just look at how today's $600 duo-core 4Gb laptop is more computer than you could have gotten for above $3000 just a few short years back. They have seen “recessions” but the overall trend has been increasing progress as soon as the good times get rolling again.

No doubt certain aspects of the future will come as a rude surprise to them unable to countenance a reversal of such longstanding trends in technological improvement. The presumption is that a lot of people & organizations will just keep doing what they've always been doing, even as it becomes progressively more difficult or less feasible to do whatever it is. Events in Las Vegas seem like a good example of this, with the developers & local officials convincing them that yet another casino or condotel will “bring back the magic” of prosperity. Then there's Detroit, where billions of dollars will seek a most entropic form of waste as they are putatively put toward “keeping the automakers afloat” while they “wait for better times to return”.

Guys, thank you for helping generate the amusing spectacle of Dale plopping his feet into one sticky cow-pie o' ignorance after another. Even funnier is the way he sticks to the “but I'm right!” thing no matter what happens. It's almost like that precious childhood memory of my 3yo brother petulantly insisting that the “2 + 2 = 5” he wrote on the blackboard was correct.

Err, if you want longevity in a roof, try standing-seam metal roof, like the kind on that nicely-built 1820s farmhouse mentioned earlier. Still standing & still being lived in.

Dale, that coffeegrinder worked just fine again today. Do you want me to report in it daily as you wait for it to fail? No doubt you're expecting it to fit your strange theory about how there's nothing from the past that was made or designed better than anything from the present? Teehee.

Nudge

They said oil prices just went above $47. Just think, less than $100 more to go up before we're back to seeing folks whine about the unfairness of those “evil oil companies” making it difficult for them to exercise their dog-given Duhmerican right to drive the hugest SUV anywhere anytime at the slightest whim.

Is everyone all set for a repetition of this past summer's circus show? Are we going to see those same evangelistic preachers who put SUVs on the altar and arrange for group pray-in sessions to bring down the price?

Everyone talks about how motor fuel usage has declined in the UPL. Think of it as a lessening of the range of play in the elastic portion of demand. Whatever ratio of elastic vs inelastic demand we had prior to the summer of 2008 is now much smaller. Seeing as how demand has /not/ picked up again with the cheapening of fuel prices, this essentially means that when we get whacked again with high prices, we don't have as much useless motoring activity to give up as we did before .. which lessens our demand-destruction options.

But, hey, there's never been a better time to buy a Stupid Urban-assault Vehicle, right?

Martin H

Nudge, Dale's dismissal of the accomplishments of earlier techniques does no one any favours. It's not that he's wrong: it's more subtle, more elusive than that. Take it from whence it comes; deny no one their experience. Grant Dale the benefit of the doubt; he knows what he's talking about. So do you. The new materials and techniques Dale speaks of are rooted in the oil age's pervasive power to displace the old ways. And it is desperately hard to discern what those are, because the US has been unfortunate in that it is so rich that it has been able to sweep away so much of what went before. Older, poorer cultures have been able to preserve the built environment that has used techniques that have a weight and heft that is testament to an aesthetic of "defiance", one that confers a sense of posterity, that is meant to last. Artefacts made in this way last for generations; they can be humanised. We know what they are because they have layers of beauty that yield themselves the closer they are studied. The techniques and materials Dale favours have advantages but resist humanisation, keep their distance from felt experience, and are not missed when they are taken away. They are rude, insolent and ugly. Ask Jim.

I find it particularly hard to listen to the comments on these pages about the lost machine tool companies in New York state (or Massachusetts: think Millers Falls) that have been destroyed. American industrial design had a distinctive weighty aesthetic, instantly recognisable, whose loss is felt by people like me who appreciate its merits. Today, if I want a Crescent wrench, I might as well just forget about it. All that's available is a piece of tat made in China. Dale is an apologist for late-stage capitalism, a haughty triumphalism over Americans' legitimate desire to own their destiny and be able to survey their world and call it theirs.

Nudge

Martin, great comment. Glad you are here. :)

AndrewRyan

"No more crybabies", James? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black....lol

http://anti-doomer.blogspot.com/2009/01/kunstlers-downer-2009-prediction.html

The Mule

Just in case you all wanted to know, it was the Israelis that broke the cease-fire which started off the rocket fire from/into Gaza.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html

Kieran

What evidence do you have that the middle class will no longer be able to afford vehicles? It seems your predictions are inflated from the excitement of the crisis. American people have tended to live their lives on credit. There is a correction occurring where banks wish to hold more capital. As such it will be hard to get a good rate on a loan at the moment, especially if you have a bad credit rating. This will persist for a few years (perhaps it should persist for ever). If the status quo was so unnatural we would have seen the end of investment banking/the automobile industry/credit cards a long time ago. The fact that most large oil companies have research departments in alternative fuels is enough to convince me that there is a commercial and sustainable future there, as determined by informed specialists.

I appreciate the angle you come from, indeed cognitive dissonance exists. It will be hard for people to change their habits although it is necessary. But these changes are themselves normal and part of societal development.

margot sheehan

The Long Emergency: your points are well taken, as usual. However, time keeps everything from happening at once, and people are incredibly elastic with their needs. Suburbia will prove far hardier than you think. People live in suburbia because it is normality to them and emotionally they cannot live anywhere else. Many are already used to spending half their incomes on motorcar-related expenses. They will buy overpriced electric cars and wear K-mart clothes before they move. They will even get a horse-and-buggy and vote for trolley lines. But they will not move to the City so long as the City is perceived as a multiracial slum. Suburban change will follow urban change, and that is a long shift that may take generations.

Conor

You wrote: "lead to Mr. Lewis becoming the wife of a bodybuilder in one of New York State's houses of correction -- a just outcome".

First of all, for a class of criminal like these, incarceration will most likely be in a facility like the one in Lompoc, CA. - one of the Manson ladies will be a likelier roommate than a bodybuilder.

Secondly: I'm sure you're not condoning rape in prison - or anywhere else - but you're certainly making light of it *tee-hee* - rape as a just outcome: nice.

Conor

Well, I'm glad I wasn't the only one to comment on the prison rape allusion. Ad homin of this nature only subverts your stature and betrays weakness in your point(s) of view.

Of course as another commenter said: you write the same post every time over and over again, threading your needle to sew up the bag that neatly fits your premise: peak oil.

That's simply not as important as peak livable space nor peak potable water, among other peaks.

cwcrosby42

Well, it is July and the enthusiasm is not great, but the die off in the markets is yet to come.

Personally, I thought it would take until October before things went to hell in a handbasket.

Of course, we can all hope that we are wrong... but I have to plan based on where I see things headed.

A Reuters article today reported that the use of oil "will not peak until 2050." How do you suppose that will happen? Seems to me that it will have to peak when oil peaks? Or do I have this demand/supply thing all wrong? Does demand create supply? Hmm....

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