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effee

This is re: Joe who says he can design an electric car that gets the equivalent of 1000 mpg for $2000. My response to that is WTF are you waiting for then? ANYONE who could actually do that would be a magician, not to mention the richest person the world has ever known.
As far as fusion power goes, that may very well never pan out. People have been working on fusion power for over half a century and still no one knows if it's possible or feasible. Why don't you get serious and stop talking nonsense. It's offensive to those who know something about these matters.

celtnorse

I think this deserves a post, and an earnest rebuttal of the "purist" doomsaying... but with agreeable caveats.

FWIW, I readily agree that the fossil fuel powered economy is in peril. I also agree (and I think the spittle flecked fury of thise who dismiss it in the comments is not only foolishness, but at least in some cases, vaalidating).

With the disappearance of cheap energy, civilization as we know it really will implode. It will implode fast and furious, or it will implode in an inexorable decline, but implode it will. And as it does so, the idea of social disintegration and even catastrophic upheaval is not at all an unreasonable prediction. On the contrary, it might be cold and sober analysis.

However, what I think is lacking here is enough deference to new technology, and the potential for the unknown to serve up opportunity (just as much as it can serve up disaster).

Worth noting here is that when the world transitioned to fossil fuels, it was well after the indutrial revolution was under way, and at the time, forests all over the western world were being annihilated... for thermal output. It was unsustainable, and without the industrial powered transition to Oil, it would have collapsed.

Before I address this specifically, I would like to make clear both to Mssr Kunstler, and to anyone who reads this, that I also think that the idea that the author is at least partly fed by a host of tired and typically banal biases is very clear. Lines like the one in The Long Emergency that speak to the Southeast in caricature clinging to their skewered ethos if individualism that needs a gun to defend it, as a place likely to fly apart under duress, reveals worlds to me (and I'm an ExPat New Yorker living in Europe).

Nevertheless, I think there are VERY serious insights in the body of his work.

But, he dismisses fusion, as have many, far too quickly. There are a number of feasible paths to this next level of human industry that are on the table, and they will pan out in some form, becuase they MUST pan out in some form. I base this on the "necessity is the mother of invention" code, and on the fact that I agree in the main with Kunstler on what will happen without it... though I am a bit less infused with sunny optimism.

It is easy for Mssr Kunstler, or indeed anyone to scoff at viable Fusion since the biggest beast in the fusion world is the ITER facility. But ITER is a beast of unbelievable proportions. In a lot of ways, it is the ultimate expression of how risk aversion actually wastes resources, because the Tokamak was effectively a dead end when it was at Princeton over a decade ago. This approach will simply never be of commercial use, and in fact its research value is highly dubious as well... though it certainly keeps a load of researchers on a payroll.

In any case, this position is also what Bussard believed, and as he was the driving force behind the EM "pinch" approach that is still going strong, one has to concede that Boron 11 may have its place, and has potential. However, because of the nature of the proton-Boron11 reaction, it may also be impractical as a viable power generation alternative.

But... then there is Helium 3. The reason He3 is such an interesting target, is simply that it really has the potential to be the real deal, a true "game changer" that could take humanity to the next level in almost unimaginable ways.

The fact that He3 is so stable, and so small, is both a challenge and a boon. Getting practical power from a thermal reaction is almost certainly out of the question. The coulomb barrier (the electrostatic repulsive force of the nucleus) is so high (around 1MeV) in an He3 - He3 reaction, that it is almost impossible to imagine ever getting enogh collisions in any kind of plasma to generate positive energy. Even with a mix of Deuterium and He3, (technically also aneutronic), there would be so many side reactions between deuterium atoms (which definitely does produce neutrons aplenty) that the overall process would not be aneutronic at all.

However, magnetic containment is not the only way to get nuclei to fuse, and there may be the possibility for breakthrough technologies that make use of this. For example, it has been suggested, that with a geometric arrangement of double walled carbon nanotubes (which generate nano scale electric fields) would tend to create a stream of He3 ions in a single line with extrardinary precision (keeping them centered to within several proton diamerters, even taking into account quantum flux). A single tube would be divided at the center, and angled minutely, sending a stream of ions towards an opposing stream from the other direction, wherein an extremely high fraction of them would pass within the range of the strong nuclear force, securing fusion. Perhaps with something like near 100% efficiency.

Such an approach would use an array of these tubes, aligned and being perfectly straight geometrically, angled at the center. He3 Nuclei that fused would then release all their energy in 2 protons moving at better than half way to the speed of light, and being charged ions, could have the vast majority of their energy captured directly as electricity through electrostatic containment within the reaction chamber.

Keep in mind though, that this approach is one of several that could yield such a breakthrough. In the interest of sobriety, also keep in mind that a helium 3 nuclei even in the smallest possible nanotube (12 Carbon rings in circumference) it is more or less like a stream of peas in a tunnel opening several hundred yards wide. Engineering and manufacturing this would be a challenge to say the least. But it does not seem impossible.

The final point here is that had breakthrough technologies such as this been a major focus of our civilization during the last few decades, rather than the debacle of things like ITER (which ironically, was done under the idea of an incremental approach), we would have a decent likelihood by now of having something viable, if not solved, in our hands right now.

With a solution, we could be looking at the moon as the source for cheap clean energy that would support humanity with low cost and wasteless energy for several centuries at least. An order of magnitude cheaper per joule or kilowatt-hour than anything we will ever see with Oil again. Several places on the moon with high concentration of titanium in the regolith, are likely to have quite high concentrations of He3, and with cheap energy, commercial exploitation and in fact colonization of the moon would be at hand.

If you think this is infeasible, you are as unimaginative in the realistic sense, as those who scoff at Kunstlers clear eyed assessment.

I would also add finally, that without a breakthrough like this in fairly short order, there is an extremely high risk of forces being unbound in the coming years that will indeed potentially result in the wholesale re-ordering of most human societies, and undoubtedly to all of our great detriment, and to that of posterity. Sustainability is not viable in any meaningful way through any of the much lauded solutions that use "sustainability" as a buzzword. The facts just dont support it (excpet perhaps solar, but only in an orbital configuration, and the numbers there even at scale, are not promising.

We need this, and we need it quickly, or I really fear our children will inherit a world in steep decline, and a civilization with its apex rapidly becoming merely a bitter memory.

celtnorse

Try Again...

I think this deserves a post, and an earnest rebuttal of the "purist" doomsaying... but with agreeable (to Mssr Kunstler) caveats.

FWIW, I readily agree that the fossil fuel powered economy is in peril. I also agree (and I think the spittle flecked fury of those who dismiss it in the comments is not only foolishness, but at least in some cases, vaalidating to his thesis about the nature of denial).

With the disappearance of cheap energy, civilization as we know it really will implode. It will implode fast and furious, or it will implode in an inexorable decline, but implode it will. And as it does so, the idea of social disintegration and even catastrophic upheaval is not at all an unreasonable prediction. On the contrary, it might be cold and sober analysis.

However, what I think is lacking here is enough deference to new technology, and the potential for the unknown to serve up opportunity (just as much as it can serve up disaster).

Worth noting here is that when the world transitioned to fossil fuels, it was well after the indutrial revolution was under way, and at the time, forests all over the western world were being annihilated... for thermal output. It was unsustainable, and without the industrial powered transition to Oil, it would have collapsed.

Before I address this specifically, I would like to make clear both to Mssr Kunstler, and to anyone who reads this, that I also think that the idea that the author is at least partly fed by a host of tired and typically banal biases is very clear. Lines like the one in The Long Emergency that speak to the Southeast in caricature clinging to their skewered ethos if individualism that needs a gun to defend it, as a place likely to fly apart under duress, reveals worlds to me (and I'm an ExPat New Yorker living in Europe).

Nevertheless, I think there are VERY serious insights in the body of his work.

But, he dismisses fusion, as have many, far too quickly. There are a number of feasible paths to this next level of human industry that are on the table, and they will pan out in some form, becuase they MUST pan out in some form. I base this on the "necessity is the mother of invention" code, and on the fact that I agree in the main with Kunstler on what will happen without it... though I am a bit less infused with sunny optimism.

It is easy for Mssr Kunstler, or indeed anyone to scoff at viable Fusion since the biggest beast in the fusion world is the ITER facility. But ITER is a beast of unbelievable proportions. In a lot of ways, it is the ultimate expression of how risk aversion actually wastes resources, because the Tokamak was effectively a dead end when it was at Princeton over a decade ago. This approach will simply never be of commercial use, and in fact its research value is highly dubious as well... though it certainly keeps a load of researchers on a payroll.

In any case, this position is also what Bussard believed, and as he was the driving force behind the EM "pinch" approach that is still going strong, one has to concede that Boron 11 may have its place, and has potential. However, because of the nature of the proton-Boron11 reaction, it may also be impractical as a viable power generation alternative.

But... then there is Helium 3. The reason He3 is such an interesting target, is simply that it really has the potential to be the real deal, a true "game changer" that could take humanity to the next level in almost unimaginable ways.

The fact that He3 is so stable, and so small, is both a challenge and a boon. Getting practical power from a thermal reaction is almost certainly out of the question. The coulomb barrier (the electrostatic repulsive force of the nucleus) is so high (around 1MeV) in an He3 - He3 reaction, that it is almost impossible to imagine ever getting enogh collisions in any kind of plasma to generate positive energy. Even with a mix of Deuterium and He3, (technically also aneutronic), there would be so many side reactions between deuterium atoms (which definitely does produce neutrons aplenty) that the overall process would not be aneutronic at all.

However, magnetic containment is not the only way to get nuclei to fuse, and there may be the possibility for breakthrough technologies that make use of this. For example, it has been suggested, that with a geometric arrangement of double walled carbon nanotubes (which generate nano scale electric fields) would tend to create a stream of He3 ions in a single line with extrardinary precision (keeping them centered to within several proton diamerters, even taking into account quantum flux). A single tube would be divided at the center, and angled minutely, sending a stream of ions towards an opposing stream from the other direction, wherein an extremely high fraction of them would pass within the range of the strong nuclear force, securing fusion. Perhaps with something like near 100% efficiency.

Such an approach would use an array of these tubes, aligned and being perfectly straight geometrically, angled at the center. He3 Nuclei that fused would then release all their energy in 2 protons moving at better than half way to the speed of light, and being charged ions, could have the vast majority of their energy captured directly as electricity through electrostatic containment within the reaction chamber.

Keep in mind though, that this approach is one of several that could yield such a breakthrough. In the interest of sobriety, also keep in mind that a helium 3 nuclei even in the smallest possible nanotube (12 Carbon rings in circumference) it is more or less like a stream of peas in a tunnel opening several hundred yards wide. Engineering and manufacturing this would be a challenge to say the least. But it does not seem impossible.

The final point here is that had breakthrough technologies such as this been a major focus of our civilization during the last few decades, rather than the debacle of things like ITER (which ironically, was done under the idea of an incremental approach), we would have a decent likelihood by now of having something viable, if not solved, in our hands right now.

With a solution, we could be looking at the moon as the source for cheap clean energy that would support humanity with low cost and wasteless energy for several centuries at least. An order of magnitude cheaper per joule or kilowatt-hour than anything we will ever see with Oil again. Several places on the moon with high concentration of titanium in the regolith, are likely to have quite high concentrations of He3, and with cheap energy, commercial exploitation and in fact colonization of the moon would be at hand.

If you think this is infeasible, you are as unimaginative in the realistic sense, as those who scoff at Kunstlers clear eyed assessment.

I would also add finally, that without a breakthrough like this in fairly short order, there is an extremely high risk of forces being unbound in the coming years that will indeed potentially result in the wholesale re-ordering of most human societies, and undoubtedly to all of our great detriment, and to that of posterity. Sustainability is not viable in any meaningful way through any of the much lauded solutions that use "sustainability" as a buzzword. The facts just dont support it (excpet perhaps solar, but only in an orbital configuration, and the numbers there even at scale, are not promising.

We need this, and we need it quickly, or I really fear our children will inherit a world in steep decline, and a civilization with its apex rapidly becoming merely a bitter memory.

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